Curse

shadowfell · Mar 19, 2006, 01:58 PM // 13:58

I had a 55 monk for awhile..powerful little thing and makes for lonely farming etc. I ended up selling all of my runes, and offhand, etc. It was neat to see it work, but in the end, wasn't interesting enough to keep my attention.

Really, the purpose of the monk in the game is to heal, protect, smite, etc in a party situation. Spending so much time by yourself, using the same spells over and over and over and over and over and over, merely to benefit yourself, and your accounts worth, isn't really good pve, and does nothing to increase your ability as a healer or bonder for a party of people.

Maybe this is why people say monks suck so much in missions, they've spent too much offtime, working as a 55, getting that build down pat. =P Can't ever seem to find a monk in a mission, but you can fine 50 in Droknars, trying to sell you some overpriced junk. Clearly, the class and the spells are being misused.

Basically, I'd like to see 55 solo'ing eradicated, in all classes and for good.

Sagius Truthbarron · Mar 19, 2006, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by aB-

Most of the asian farmeres there are not bots, but people working in sweatshops for very little pay.

You have no idea if this is true or not. Becuase they are Asian they must be working in sweatshops?

Maybe you should take a look at Lion's Arch AD1 and see the legions of Warrior Monks in Gladiator's Armor standing around trying to sell their hordes of trash gold items.

Do you think those American W/mos are working in sweat shops?

Cottage Pie · Mar 19, 2006, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluffyx

Is this sarcasm, or are you being serious. So, let me get this straight its not the person whos selling these items for real cash its the person buying it? Of course they create the market, but whos supplying it. And especially supplying it with botted players. You cannot deny that many bots farmers are bots. Go look in droks int if you dont believe it. If you dont think that a solo farmer, farming some of the most powerful monsters in the game and keeping drops that are meant for an 8 man team I cant see why you would thing that solo farming is fair. For god sakes play the game like everyone else, the real losers are the people who spend hours farming by themselves then try to show off their "godly" equips. Everyone knows that the only people who have cash in this game are the buyers or the farmers no wonder the market is so lopsided.

Not a hint of sarcasm, yes I go OTT, but that's just me. I know a 'fair bit' (as much as someone who's never used them can, perhaps) about bots, i've spoken to/played with some and done a good amount of looking up what are bots. I'd like to say again i;ve never touched a bot, i like not getting keylogged, etc :P "You cannot deny that many bots farmers are bots" well natrually :P some are also definately people, perhaps one person overseeing lots of bots. But they've done nothing wrong, it's us wealthy westeners with all our money and vanity that drives the slave drivers to farm online games to satisfy some players love of convenience.

DvM · Mar 19, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

You have no idea if this is true or not. Becuase they are Asian they must be working in sweatshops?

Maybe you should take a look at Lion's Arch AD1 and see the legions of Warrior Monks in Gladiator's Armor standing around trying to sell their hordes of trash gold items.

Do you think those American W/mos are working in sweat shops?

uhm, you might wanna check this movie http://www.flabber.nl/archief/015498.php
I dont know how to directly link to it sorry for that.

studentochaos · Mar 19, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cottage Pie

But they've done nothing wrong, it's us wealthy westeners with all our money and vanity that drives the slave drivers to farm online games to satisfy some players love of convenience.

/signed

Fire Childe · Mar 19, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Attacking the supply side of a problem only makes for feel-good headlines in the news. The demand side is the driving force behind every market, and if you want any actual changes that's what needs to be addressed.

I wouldn't mind seeing the 55 monk go away, but not because of ebay gold or anything along those lines. In my mind the 55 monk is a sum of everything wrong with PvE in this game, any any meaningful fix to it needs to start with that template.

Peace,
-CxE

Well you are right in the sense that the demand has to change for any really permanent solution to the problem can ever come about. As long as there are people wanting to spend vast amounts of cash for ingame items then theres a pretty good chance there will always be someone supplying to take them up on the offer. Turning up a good profit is something that anyone would want if they could get away with it.

But, that would involve changing the attitude of a hell load of players. And thats just unfeisible.

Counterpoint to what you say though, I think there is nothing wrong with the 55 build as it is - it is after all just a clever combination of skills that you can use to give yourself a big advantage in a fight. Thats the end point of any good build regardless of whether it is for pve or pvp.

In my mind, the 55 monk is not the sum of all that is wrong in the pve game. Rather, it is the attitude of many players (motivated by greed and want) that they would exploit builds like this for the sole purpose of getting very rich, very fast.

I always thought that the pvp tournament and guild battle was the natural extension to the pve campaign. Once you had built up your character to be pvp worthy, that in essense was the endgame. From what I can from the pve game, quite alot of players refuse to pvp at all and farming becomes the endgame. For those unwilling to grind but very much willing to get rich quick, then botting was always going to be corrolory.

Good points made in this thread but I doubt the issue would get fix by nerfing protective spirit amongst other things. I think people just need something else to do - something that feels more accessible to the average pve player than the current pvp game (which is quite intricate and probably scary for alot of newcomers). Something else to play. Not feel as if they have done it all and theres nothing left to do except horde ecto for fissure armour or for the next expansion...I dont know...

frojack · Mar 19, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

Heres a concept. Only allow decent drops for full parties... I could respect that...

Full parties % chance of Gold and Purple drops.
(Greens only possible in full parties) (Greens not possible with henchies)

1/2 party % chance of Purples... (Make Globs of Ecto and Shards and Gems equivilant to purple drops.)

solo White only for salvage purposes... (otherwise how can you ever be expected to craft anything...)

You know what? These are some of the best ideas I have ever heard for fixing this problem.

No nerfing of skills, so no affects to the pvp game.

No real nerfing of farming either as you can still do it in a group. 8 55 monks? Who cares (or if you do, just drop the % further for them :P).

A return to the days of people farming in team's, enjoying the game socially again. Old school Sorrow's Style.

No one gets obscenely rich because they have all the time in the world. (Wasn't this Anet's stance on GW in general? Skill over grind?).

BTW excellent post Cottage Pie. Some very good point's.

Saider maul · Mar 19, 2006, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsunami Rain

People make bots then rush them through the game then power level them to 20 slap on 55 gear and run them through a programed path to farm for them remotely. These people leave their computers on all day and build up a large sum of money which they then sell on ebay (which is against Arena Net's legal note) for money. And since it is against Arena Net's policy to sell Guild Wars related merchandise (which include ingame items and cd keys) unless given their consent, I believe Arena Net has an ongoing effort to stop bot users. I hope that clarified some things for you.

Its this exploitation of the build that forces the market to be such and the march of monks goes to prove it. The Honest Farmers Who run This Build Are Hurt Bye this.
Right Now a 55 Must farm 8-10hr to earn the 100-150k I am able in Droknar.
Imagine the game without the ebay craze. The way the game was when it was released but with all patches in place. The 55 would now farm only 1 day a month instead of 2-3 days a week Time permitting. Wheres time to play the game? If we could just stop the exploitation of this build by the USER/ABUSER We would have a market comparable to the PVP faction scale.

Yes collector items are ok but their are a few twists to gold and green item in conjuction with that give an added edge.

I Rarely Post against the 55 build. This is more a post for anti-abuse of this build by the ebay community. Punishing everyone is not the answer. Finding a solution that will hinder the ebay community but allow the experienced HONEST farmer To carry on is the answer.

Every society has its place for each profession, ie. traders, mercenaries,armed guard(pvp),protectors,medics,and FARMERS.

where would the max stat be without farmers?

Saider maul · Mar 19, 2006, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by DvM

uhm, you might wanna check this movie http://www.flabber.nl/archief/015498.php
I dont know how to directly link to it sorry for that.

Yes I see how they live and are trying to make a living. However i have seen videos of multiple computers haveing bot programs running and 1 person watching 5-8 computers maintaining them like in manufacturing. Thes bots can even be obtained thru ebay.lol
its the exploitation of this that needs to stop only 2 ways to do this.

1: place traders to cap prices and increase the acessibility of items to all after changeing the environment to work only in strategically balanced groups not necessarily full groups.

2:Seriously hinder ebayers with transaction tracability and if programs are being used make it so the ai can not think past a critical part in the beginning of the farming route.

Victor The Eternal · Mar 19, 2006, 04:29 PM // 16:29

HOw about we make it ez 4 arena and 4 other players that jsut like to play the game?? How about we move Prot Spirit Effect from being able to self target and to only target allies?? That will stop the 55 if not totaly remove em!

Yogi's Pain · Mar 19, 2006, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Two points.

How many 18 and 19 year old Americans would love to play games all day and all night? Not have to worry about food or a place to live, just video games with other people like them. I can think of a worse way to make ends meet.

As for Ebay. What is the big deal about gold anyways? Is there anything in GW that is actually worth more than 50k?

Fire Childe · Mar 19, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Depends what you define as 'worth.' There is no item in the game regulated by anet via a trader that is worth more than the price of a Superior Absorption Rune (which I think is around 55 to 70kish).

Items with rare skins have a worth which is determined by individual players and in the case of crystalline swords and dwarven axes (especially when they have pvp weapon stats) seem to command prices over 5 million gold. So much that you need to trade it in ectos since you cannot physically have thatm uch gold on your account.

55 botting has definitely contributed to the devaluation of gold simply because there are quite alot of them farming trolls and creating gold whereas there are not enough gold sinks to take it out of the game (armourers or material traders for instance). As a result the amount of gold in the game is always increasing (at a rate which shouldnt really be possible as botters leave their macros on for typically longer than it takes the average human being to become bored and need food or sleep). Farming to a lesser extent also contributes to this but I guess that was to be expected really.

The amount of gold in circulation shouldnt really be increasing or decreasing rapidly. More people with more disposible income simply have more to offer for a particularly desirable weapon skin. And as soon as someone sells for instance, a dwarven axe at that price, then everyone else with a similar dwarven axe also wants at least that price for theirs. Wasnt there a thread on here about some guy that sold his dwarven axe for 1200 ecto? I mean, I dont even know how you would go about getting that much ecto...

Yogi's Pain · Mar 19, 2006, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Well if some guy wants to spend real money for some GW gold so he can buy an axe for 1 mil that has the same stats as a green I picked up for 20k, I'm okay with that. Not sure how it affects me at all really.

Cottage Pie · Mar 19, 2006, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

Wasnt there a thread on here about some guy that sold his dwarven axe for 1200 ecto? I mean, I dont even know how you would go about getting that much ecto...

I recall that, I think it was to another well known Ebayer?...Either that or they brought ectos when they were 250g per lol.

Assuming it's £30 (website prices) per One million gold, and ecto @ 7k...

you need 715 ectos for a 5mil weapon...either way...£150. -.-

That's how.

ur worst night mare · Mar 19, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

they should elminate 55. 55s are so annoying whenever u see that mo/w. its so annoying when they join u in a group for a mission there all like yea im a healer but then once its starts they run off and there like whoo black dye drop from a haydra i just soloed because im a 55 monk. all i can say i really hope they nerf out all possiblitys of a 55 monk. even though my warrior likes the trolls its a price ill have to pay.

Mimi Miyagi · Mar 19, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

The fact that while you can unlock via faction a superior vigor, for example, yet not have it avilable (except by paying excessively large amounts of cash for it) via PvE is the crux of the problem. I can unlock a Superior Rune via PvE for both PvE or PvP play, yet I can't do the opposite.

Let's recap:
Ultra rare items can only be gained in PvE either by farming, or an extremely lucky drop during a mission.
This encourages farming for said items, because the more you farm, the better your chances are to gain said item.
The rarity of the item boosts the price of said item, thus causing normal PvE players to pay huge sums of money for it. Some items like "perfect" mods can only be gained via play, not purchased at a trader.
ANet nerfs farming spots to combat sweatshop farming - thus making it even more difficult for "honest" PvE players to gain the item. This drives up the price, encouraging even more sweatshop farming.
Thus, things that ANet is doing to combat farming is actually making things worse, due to higher prices, rarity of highly desired items, and more solo farming behavior as people get frustrated with the whole thing.
ANet doesn't "appear" to be doing much to stop the sweatshop farmers, simply because they can't stop someone from getting another account and resuming farming activity. Sweatshop farmers are smart, they know how to "launder" their cash so the accounts are safe, and the real culprits (the sweatshop owners) are (normally) out of the country and can't be stopped via any EULA lawsuits as EULA is only binding if the country you reside in recognizes it as such. If ANet bans their account, big deal, it's easy to buy another, and doesn't harm the 50 farmer accounts they have, just the one holding all the money.

It's all a catch-22. If the game isn't about "items" but skill, then there shouldn't be "rare" items to begin with. The higher the rarity, the more it costs, which encourages more farming, or the use of ebay to purchase those items. Since there is a huge lack of things to do (besides joining farming parties for greens, or solo farming for money) once you finish the game (which can take a person only a week to do), the game itself encourages farming behavior - or moving on to something else entirely - like WoW.

You're not going to stop player's stupidity in paying huge amounts of money for vanity so that's not the answer. The only other option is to change the supply. If you're not going to change that, then you'll have to live with the way things are.

Count to Potato · Mar 19, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

How bout make every monster have an interupt? or like degen skills? massive degen

Xenrath · Mar 19, 2006, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Here's a rather old video I made of pre-patch Augury Rock

http://files.filefront.com/PiedPiper.../fileinfo.html

That wasn't even peak times for the army of farmers (or monkbots), nor was it the international district. It used to be much worse as well.

Guardian of the Light · Mar 19, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Just make it so there has to be some human intervention in farming.

Like at one point you have to go one way to get though to the trolls and at another go to another. The ninja Avarcia should help defend the trolls from the bots and make it so us human farmers can still get around them with judgement.

Savio · Mar 19, 2006, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Count to Potato

How bout make every monster have an interupt? or like degen skills? massive degen

Most human players would fail also, and then they'd come here and flame Anet for ruining their farm spots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Just make it so there has to be some human intervention in farming.

The bots aren't fully automated, there are people watching the computers run. Unless you made the entire run needing human intervention (see above response), it wouldn't eliminate the problem.